Incident

**EP VPMarketing** · 14 March 2011, 11:29 am

Hi Gok

I want to explain to you.
I want you to understand.
Then you will see that there was nothing dodgy.
Perhaps a moderator would be kind enough to do a call with us?
Perhaps you have a better idea?

Before then though I have to point out 1 thing.

Deposits minus casino bets minus cashouts and returns = netgaming x commission % = affiliate earnings! very simple.

This is a different formula to the one you first posted.
And it is also wrong.
There are programs that pay on deposits but in our program (like many others) deposits are not part of the formula.
It is amount bet - amount won NOT deposits - bets.
This may seem like a small difference but this is the key here (as I said all along).
You are looking at deposit amount and expecting earnings, whereas I am looking at activity.

Either way, looking forward to speaking to you again.

Thanks.

Marc

**gok** · 14 March 2011, 1:26 pm

Originally Posted by EP VPMarketing

Hi Gok

I want to explain to you.
I want you to understand.
Then you will see that there was nothing dodgy.
Perhaps a moderator would be kind enough to do a call with us?
you need a moderator because you feel the heat?
Perhaps you have a better idea?
yes I do have, you need to compensate me for that 18K! simple.

Before then though I have to point out 1 thing.
This is a different formula to the one you first posted.
And it is also wrong.
There are programs that pay on deposits but in our program (like many others) deposits are not part of the formula.
It is amount bet - amount won NOT deposits - bets.
This may seem like a small difference but this is the key here (as I said all along).
You are looking at deposit amount and expecting earnings, whereas I am looking at activity.

Yes there has been $18,000 in activitay.

Either way, looking forward to speaking to you again.

Thanks.

Marc

answers

**EP VPMarketing** · 23 March 2011, 5:28 pm

Hi Gok

Thanks for the PM.
Replied to you with my suggestions.

Looking forward to speaking again.

Marc

**gok** · 23 March 2011, 11:15 pm

Originally Posted by EP VPMarketing

Hi Gok

Thanks for the PM.
Replied to you with my suggestions.
Marc wants to tell me in 3 steps how revenue share works, so I am awaiting for his answers.
Looking forward to speaking again.

Marc

in 3 steps

**theGman** · 24 March 2011, 5:56 am

Marc i want to pose a theoretical question , if you can explain it to us then we could all learn something i guess.

If i had a player who made $18k in purchases and players lose it all gambling at a Euro Partner Casino what can an affiliate can expect to recieve in terms of commission if we use your standard rate which is 10% .

For arguments sake lets say the player has played slots only or non progressive games and this all occurred in a single month. The player has claimed i dont know 20% of that amount in bonuses .

How much could a affiliate expect to earn with Europartners on this basis . Can you break it down for us here so that we can all understand a little bit more. Obviously not each case will be the same but in most cases we should be seeing there or thereabouts in regards to the figures.

**EP VPMarketing** · 24 March 2011, 12:10 pm

Hi All

I just want to say I said there are 3 steps to closing this.
Not 3 steps to explaining revenue.
I'm not looking to argue but this is important.

I said as follows:
1 - agree on how revenue happens and is calculated
2 - talk about the specific players on the account
3 - decide what to do

Anyway, pm'ed you back, Gok.
Thanks.

Marc

**EP VPMarketing** · 24 March 2011, 12:56 pm

Hi theGman

Thanks for the question.
I'm not sure i understand exactly what you're asking so I will try answer and let's see.

If a player loses all of the money then we know exactly.
For that reason I'm not sure if I misunderstood the question.
If a player deposits 18k and loses it all it looks like this:
18k (lost) minus 3.6k (bonus according to 20%) = 14.4k net gaming (assuming no chargebacks)
14.4k times by your revenue share = earnings.

The simple formula for casino is:
Player losses minus bonuses minus chargebacks = net gaming
Net gaming times revenue share = earnings

Does that help?

I like questions and think these type of discussions are good for everyone I'm just not sure that was the question.

Speak soon.

Marc

**gok** · 24 March 2011, 2:07 pm

1)So if a player deposit $100 and recives 100% in bonus and loses his/her deposit amount the casino netgaming would be $0,00 ????

In this case, if EP keeps giving bonus amounts to players, Ep dosent need to pay any affiliate a penny! Why just dont you give them 100% bonuses and no one will write anything in this forum. Just make your own rules and forget us!

I also cant see any "bonus amounts" as well as "jackpot bets" in my statistics! why?

2)How comes that affutd (same system as Ep) calculates player loses as netgaming and pays commission on it without taking any bonus amount from the loses? but EP takes the bonus amount away from the loses of the player? That is an extra income generated by EP without the need to pay any affiliate commission on it!!! Is this happening on chat as well as by email marketing?

3)Affutd and EP, both programs works the same way on playtech as well as sport and poker betting, what is the different here? see an example from affutd:

Looking at the statistics at Ep I can conclude Ep has given $8,020.19 in bonus money to players and Ep dosent want to pay commission on it? is this realy true ?????

**theGman** · 24 March 2011, 2:31 pm

Hi Marc

You understood the question perfectly and thank you for providing an answer, it does help.

It also seems to me that there are issues with Goks fields and what he can and can not see. I do know that Playtech have a lot of fields that are not displayed - why dont you just give him access to all of the fields and let him tell you which ones he does not require. That way any further misunderstandings are eliminated.

1)So if a player deposit $100 and recives 100% in bonus and loses his/her deposit amount the casino netgaming would be $0,00 ????

Gok i think that most operators operate on that basis if i am not mistaken. I also think that because of royalties and other costs associated with processing etc , most operators could not afford to offer 100% bonuses on every purchase . That said it might work differently with Europartners i dont know as they are owned by Playtech.

I will let Marc answer the remainder of your questions as i am also interested to find out if there are any accounting differences between EP and Aff Utd and why this would be the case.

**gok** · 24 March 2011, 2:41 pm

Originally Posted by theGman

Gok i think that most operators operate on that basis if i am not mistaken. I also think that because of royalties and other costs associated with processing etc , most operators could not afford to offer 100% bonuses on every purchase . That said it might work differently with Europartners i dont know as they are owned by Playtech.

Just look at the pic here above from Affutd and conclude your self!

AK · 24 March 2011, 3:21 pm

Actually not all affiliate programs charge the affiliate the bonus fee.. Some pick the entire bonus fee up and some split it with the affiliate. One thing a affiliate company must remember, "It's not real money unless they cash it out"

**EP VPMarketing** · 27 March 2011, 5:10 pm

Hi All

I want to post this in 2 pieces.

First regarding Gok's post, fields etc.
The formula posted is not correct (TLR for example) but that's not the main issue being discussed here.
The fields aren't all open by default as most affiliates don't want to see so many fields.
Extra fields can be opened but I am concerned that this would just confuse an already confused situation even more.

Regarding the bonuses questions.
3 things I want to make very clear.
1 - Types of bonuses:
The bonuses we are talking about here are signup etc bonuses.
These are deducted.
Not all bonuses are deducted for example - some tournaments, certain bonuses with arrangement with affiliate.
By default signup bonuses and conversion bonuses are deducted but these are bonuses that generate net gaming and subsequently earnings.

2 - We BOTH earn off net gaming
The affiliate earnings (revshare) are based on net gaming.
So are ours.
If there is no net gaming and the affiliate does not earn then neither does EP.
So any "dodgy" deduction that reduced net gaming would hurt us as well.
If we are earning then there is net gaming and we pay affiliates - simple.
That is, generally speaking, why I prefer rev share deals because both parties share the same interests and rewards.

3 - Calculation
I would like to go through the example raised here about bonuses and net gaming and illustrate.
Player joins, deposits $100, gets $100 in bonus and loses.
Assuming they lose everything the total loss would be $200 not $100.
So the formula would be $200 (loss) minus $100 (bonus) equals $100 net gaming NOT $0.
The bonuses are deducted because they are an EXTRA amount added to the players balance that they did not deposit.
I can't speak for all programs and I'm not going to comment on stats from aff utd but I do suggest you look again at any stats examples in this context.

I hope this helps and look forward to the next response.

Thanks.

Marc

**gok** · 28 March 2011, 9:46 am

Hi Marc,

I realy do understand that you are doing your best to explain things. That is what we have seen over the past 2 jears! And my compliments to you.
Can you explain what is been happend to the missing money?

1) is it still on players account?
2) are those all poker players?
3) did they all play jackpot games?
4) did they all take there money back?
5) was it gone in fire... because it was converted in to bonus money?

Also check this post: https://www.cpcamcctv.com/forum/situation...it-196817.html

This affiliate is telling exacly what I am saying for 2 jears now. It seems like
EP is generating extra income by giving the players high amounts of bonus
And deduct it from affiliate earnings.

So telling me that the money was returned by players was one of your biggest mistakes EP. There is
Something else smelling here ...
You have told me all this things the past 2 jears now.. wich one should I pick?

**EP VPMarketing** · 31 March 2011, 12:58 pm

Hi Gok

Thanks for the compliment.

We are not earning anything extra by giving bonuses.
Bonuses are used to create more revenue so that we BOTH earn.

Regarding your account I have told you since the first time we spoke maybe a year ago that players won which is why the revenue was not high.
I also explained that there were balances left by some since not all the players played.
We then tried (as we agreed) to contact them to convince them to play with their balance to generate more revenue.
This point is when the players that had balances reversed.

This answer is from memory from home without the data in front of me.
I have just returned today from travellling.
If you want I will send a more detailed description of the player activity to answer your question next week from the office.

Marc

**gok** · 18 April 2011, 1:42 am

EP I am asking 2 years now for that information and THE only
Thing I recived from EP was "defence" in this forum. Still
No information has been send to me from your side.

**EP VPMarketing** · 28 April 2011, 9:17 am

Hi Gok

That is not true - you and I even spoke on the phone about the player activity ~a year ago.

I offered to send you the information now and I will.
My concern (as you can see in this thread) is that if we can not even agree on how revenue is calculated then the numbers will not help.
If we both calculate differently (e.g. deposits vs net gaming) then we will both draw different conclusions.
The other concern I have is that someone might turn around and just say that the numbers are wrong or have been adjusted by us to show what we want.

Seriously have a look at this thread and try and understand my concerns here.
There were a lot of deposits but no net earnings on the account.
As I told you, unfortunately this does happen sometimes.
We can go through data and explanations and keep doing it but I am not sure you will be happy with any answer that ends in "there were not earnings as you expected".

Either way, you want an explanation - I will give it to you.
Then maybe we can put this to rest.
Would you like meet on a call and we can go over together?

Thanks.

Marc

**Moonlight Cat** · 16 May 2011, 11:43 am

error

**EP VPMarketing** · 20 May 2011, 5:58 am

Hi

Billyboy - let me know if you need anything else

Gok - I am in Dublin for the next week. Can we arrange a call for the following week.

Thanks.

Marc

**Moonlight Cat** · 24 May 2011, 7:50 pm

Originally Posted by EP VPMarketing

Hi

Billyboy - let me know if you need anything else

Hello Mark and Hello Gok. May be i am wrong, but i think i found the problem.

In Gok stats i see only Deposits Amt. And when he try to calculate he use
Deposits Amt digits. I have some problem too.

But today i see one of my friends stats. And at his stats i see two columns.

Deposits Amt
Deposit Amt

May be problem here? May be we must use Deposit Amt (not Deposits Amt) digits in our calculations? I think the problem, that some of us see only Deposits Amt column, another
see Deposits Amt and Deposit Amt at they stats.

**elgoog** · 25 May 2011, 4:50 pm

things like this can cause a teribble mis-communication

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