Committed fraud

**FMecan** · 14 December 2014, 5:28 am

Just that no one from the company can say he didn't see the thread. This is how AffUtd has stolen 14.000€ from me - https://www.cpcamcctv.com/forum/affutd-ad...ud-220603.html

**FMecan** · 16 December 2014, 6:36 pm

No statement up to now about the fraud...curious if there will be any communication from the main sponsor of the affiliate conference....

**NHLinden** · 17 December 2014, 1:54 am

Originally Posted by FMecan

No statement up to now about the fraud...curious if there will be any communication from the main sponsor of the affiliate conference....

Hi FMecan,

Based on clause 3.5 of our T&Cs, we do not pay for fraud players/traffic.
This specific player which was removed from your account, is an arbitrage/fraud player.

We understand that you as an affiliate, do not encourage this sort of activity while promoting us, and that's why we removed the player and not suspended your account entirely. That way you will still be paid for the rest of your players who are legit.

The fact this player was removed also helps you, as these players create negative balances in the affiliate's account, as is the case with this player by now.

For any further information please contact your AM.

3.5No Fraud
3.5.1The Affiliate will not engage in, allow, assist, promote, encourage or benefit from, directly or indirectly, any act or traffic that involves Fraud. The Affiliate will act at all times to refrain from, immediately stop and not allow any act or traffic that involves Fraud or that it believes or should reasonably believe to potentially involve Fraud, or any act or traffic that the Operator informs the Affiliate is suspected by it, at its discretion, to involve or potentially involve Fraud.
3.5.2In the event that the Operator suspects Fraud it reserves the right to place restrictions on the Affiliate’s account including but not limited to suspending the Affiliate’s account and retaining all sums within the account as well as commencing a full investigation. The Affiliate hereby gives the Operator its authorisation to inform the appropriate authorities or third parties of such an incident and only once the Operator is satisfied that the matter is resolved shall it remove any restrictions on the Affiliate’s account.

**thebookiesoffers** · 17 December 2014, 2:26 am

Nadav, just out of interest when it comes to arbers how do William Hill/other bookies determine if they are arbers or just big punters, unless obviously they place 2 bets with you on one event?

Nothing to do with this case, was just wondering in general

**NHLinden** · 17 December 2014, 2:41 am

Hi,

Unfortunately, and I'm sure you can understand why, I cannot describe the procedure here on this forum.
I'll be happy to explain more face to face, maybe at LAC.

Just very high level, our fraud team will flag suspicious betting patterns from a player and usually after investigating deeper they can determine whether it's indeed an arber.
If our fraud team is not 100% sure, we will not take any action.

Thanks,

**FMecan** · 17 December 2014, 4:02 am

Originally Posted by NHLinden

Hi FMecan,

Based on clause 3.5 of our T&Cs, we do not pay for fraud players/traffic.
This specific player which was removed from your account, is an arbitrage/fraud player.

We understand that you as an affiliate, do not encourage this sort of activity while promoting us, and that's why we removed the player and not suspended your account entirely. That way you will still be paid for the rest of your players who are legit.

The fact this player was removed also helps you, as these players create negative balances in the affiliate's account, as is the case with this player by now.

For any further information please contact your AM.

3.5No Fraud
3.5.1The Affiliate will not engage in, allow, assist, promote, encourage or benefit from, directly or indirectly, any act or traffic that involves Fraud. The Affiliate will act at all times to refrain from, immediately stop and not allow any act or traffic that involves Fraud or that it believes or should reasonably believe to potentially involve Fraud, or any act or traffic that the Operator informs the Affiliate is suspected by it, at its discretion, to involve or potentially involve Fraud.
3.5.2In the event that the Operator suspects Fraud it reserves the right to place restrictions on the Affiliate’s account including but not limited to suspending the Affiliate’s account and retaining all sums within the account as well as commencing a full investigation. The Affiliate hereby gives the Operator its authorisation to inform the appropriate authorities or third parties of such an incident and only once the Operator is satisfied that the matter is resolved shall it remove any restrictions on the Affiliate’s account.

Hi Nadav,

are you kidding me with this answer? Let's go through it.

First of all, arbers are not defined as fraud players, they are defined as BAD players or professional punters and I do agree that no affiliate should encourage them to sign up, which I didn't (you also said the same). Fraud players are fake identities, chargeback players, etc. and be sure that I know this because I was not only working on this side of the business. THIS is why you have risk management and try to limit arbers as soon as possible. THis is also why sharp punters and arbers look very similar in many cases and every company with a good risk management will keep the sharp punter, because he brings long term volume and usually some profit, but there is NO definition on fraud including an arber. The case you are making up here with
"The fact this player was removed also helps you, as these players create negative balances in the affiliate's account, as is the case with this player by now."
is simply not true, because the player lost 50k, so you didn't save my account from becoming negative, you simply picked additional 14k because you don't want to pay me. And if you think that I am stupid and don't understand the threat of you pasting also 3.5, then you are wrong.You are trying to say "we can also inform the authorities or suspend your account, so better be quiet". That won't happen because the fraud in this case is coming from your guys. I would be more then happy to involve the German authorities or even the authorities in UK if you like.

the summary here is:
- you admit that we did nothing wrong (I am still happy to show every single listing of WH here, so people can judge)
- You are talking about fraud, but arbing is simply not fraud and was never defined as fraud. Like I said: something 100% to prevent and would become negative marketing if I would advertise WH as "good for arbing", but this is exactly what didn't happen!
- You are talking about my account turning negative because of the arber....nonsense, the account had a revenue share of 14k €
- The fraud in this case is on the side of AffUtd and it took me few emails to find out that you are having issues across German affiliates with raised bonus costs in the affiliate accounts without any obvious reason and other similar issues that are all creating a picture about your way to do business.

And there is no reason to not discuss this in public. I have nothing to hide, so there is no reason for your "please talk to your AM". there is only one thing to talk: "when are you going to pay my money?".

**Progger** · 17 December 2014, 5:08 am

what a kind of fraud committed this player ?

regards

**FMecan** · 17 December 2014, 5:13 am

And to explain the biggest concern about the whole story. Once this style goes through...nothing will stop companies like AffUtd to go for cherrypicking and take few nive VIP punters and just say "he was an arber, we are taking him from your tracker", because there is no proveable fraud here, just the "this is what we see as fraud".

**jezza123** · 17 December 2014, 6:02 am

FMecan, You are not alone, I am having a very similar problem. It's all smoke and mirrors, trying to avoid paying commission. I totally agree with your clear description of fraud players and arbers, very well described. It's hard to believe that a company of this size and stature are seriously trying to screw people over to earn what amounts to very small extra profits for them.

**nwalker** · 17 December 2014, 6:44 am

What is an "arber"?

**efipe** · 17 December 2014, 7:09 am

Hi FMecan

Nice to meet you, i am Efi, HO international affiliation and working together with Nadav.

While it’s not our policy to discuss accounts in public. However, since you are insisting I will do my best to help.

We have been working together for a number of years and it is quite disappointing that you are making accusations of this nature towards us.

We do not abide arbitrage in customers. While we do not wish to close your account for this as we genuinely believe it has nothing to do with you. Arbitrage is not something we can ever make money on and this player in question has most certainly been doing arbitrage and has been stopped from playing.

We have very thorough and efficient arbitrage detection system in our fraud team. As we can see how upset you are over this we will reexamine this customer again. This is the last we will write on this forum, I suggest you contact me directly in order to resolve this situation. I do not wish to see you out of pocket, but we will not pay on false earnings.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Efi

**thebookiesoffers** · 17 December 2014, 7:09 am

Originally Posted by nwalker

What is an "arber"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrage_betting

**FMecan** · 17 December 2014, 7:51 am

Originally Posted by efipe

Hi FMecan

Nice to meet you, i am Efi, HO international affiliation and working together with Nadav.

While it’s not our policy to discuss accounts in public. However, since you are insisting I will do my best to help.

We have been working together for a number of years and it is quite disappointing that you are making accusations of this nature towards us.

We do not abide arbitrage in customers. While we do not wish to close your account for this as we genuinely believe it has nothing to do with you. Arbitrage is not something we can ever make money on and this player in question has most certainly been doing arbitrage and has been stopped from playing.

We have very thorough and efficient arbitrage detection system in our fraud team. As we can see how upset you are over this we will reexamine this customer again. This is the last we will write on this forum, I suggest you contact me directly in order to resolve this situation. I do not wish to see you out of pocket, but we will not pay on false earnings.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Efi

Hi Efi,

to make one thing clear. The disapointment started here clearly from ONE direction. And my insisting in a public discussion is based on the email exchange with my AM and this one was
"the responsible person is saying we wont pay for this customer, nothing I can do about" and that was it, so unfortunately AffUtd didn't care how long we are working together or how the relationship was. So the only way was exactly THIS.
I was doing my job as affiliate and this very simple and straight forward:
1. Building a good image for the brand
2. Directing the customer to you guys and preparing him to be converted into a paid customer.
3. Doing everything to get the interest of good customers.
Like I said....what ever you thing is my fault here, I am more then happy to discuss public, simply because I believe in transparency.

So, now we did out part and let's say the person was an arber (I simply have no way to check this, prove this or whatever, but let's say he is one), the right way to go is to OF COURSE get him and limit him ASAP. Every company has the systems to do this, BUT this is NO fraud. it doesn't matter if you like it or not, fraud is a word that is here in a wrong place. It is a bad unprofitable customer long term and this is why you limit him, but it is nothin illegal.

And the biggest ignorance is the sentence "While we do not wish to close your account for this as we genuinely believe it has nothing to do with you." - none of my customers was an issue and there are around 100 of them in the this year. Like I said, no big number, because you killed your German sportsbetting business, BUT I made a clear picture that I am working clean. At same time, you are stealing money from me and still acting like I should be thankful that you didn't grab everything and close the account? Are you serious?

False earnings are earning I didn't bring to your house, but in this case you have around 50k from the customer and simply don't want to pay what you have to pay.

Feda

**-Shay-** · 17 December 2014, 9:05 am

If the player is not refunded for his/her losses, the affiliate deserves to be compensated.

**FMecan** · 19 December 2014, 5:03 am

I sent a PM Efi, but up to now there is no reply. This was the same day the posting was made here. I will ofc give some time to rethink the option, but the next step would be to go the legal way, something I hate with passion, but I don't see a reason to let this go. I worked in the senior management in GIB in the industry and I am sure the firm I prefer on GIB has a chance. It starts with the completely absurd definition of fraud and other things. I do believe they will realize how wrong they are, but I don't mind picking up this fight.

**efipe** · 19 December 2014, 5:19 am

Hi FMecan

sorry i didn't get any notification about your PM, i just logged in and saw.
you are welcome to send me an email.
we are rechecking the player and the account.
i will give you more details early next week by email

please switch communication to emails

Efi

**Sherlock** · 19 December 2014, 5:40 am

Originally Posted by nwalker

What is an "arber"?

Arber is an arbitrage player. Someone who covers all events for certain profit at different bookies. The slow bookie, in this case WH, is the one whose odds were beaten and bettor on those slow odds causes loss for the shop in long term.

**Sherlock** · 19 December 2014, 5:56 am

Originally Posted by thebookiesoffers

Nadav, just out of interest when it comes to arbers how do William Hill/other bookies determine if they are arbers or just big punters, unless obviously they place 2 bets with you on one event?

Nothing to do with this case, was just wondering in general

This is actually the crucial question.

There is no way arber and sharp player could be distinguished. There is no argumentation about this Nadav. I was doing both.

Both arber and sharp bettor are so called steam bettors [they bet steam, the bets that disappear like steam]. Both of them sit by lineservice/arbservice like Donbest. The only difference between arber and sharp bettor is that arber is hedging his bet elsewhere, while regular bettor is not. So there is no way that WH can see if someone is doing arbitrage. WH can see expost that someone is betting on value, that is it. And if WH is so idiotic, that lets in year 2014 that bettor to win 5 figures, it is their own incompetence.

No wonder you want to go off record, Linden. This stinks.

And the last remark: arbitrage player is not a fraudster. He is not welcomed, he has to be spotted and doors have to be shown to him by recreactional bookie, but he has to be honored. And affiliate, of course, as well. It is up to affiliate programme to make TOS that affiliates do not make money on +EV players.

But +EV player is not something like credit card fraud. It is just incredible to hear this lame excuse and lie from one of the biggest bookies. You have to fire your security team. One programmer can do better then they. But you can not decide to not pay ppl thet you have deal with. Your definition of fraud as arbitrage is not in your TOS. It is something you made up in your heads as excuse.

You are playing with words, Linden. I can see it from every your post. If some rule of mine is not clear, I pay for it. That is common behavior between partners. But this is not even unlear situation. Arbitrage player is not a fraudster. Never was and never will be. He is just a customer that does not bring you money, but that is not a fraud! Same is bonus scapler. Every merchant has a customers that does not make money with and then he has to deal with it. But that merchant can not force his business partners to pay for those customers.

I am ******* upset to read this. Everyone should absolutely beware to work with such crooks.

**DanHorvat** · 20 December 2014, 12:46 pm

Sherlock, they are not crooks, they're a respected company with long tradition and they have a rule to not pay for arbitrage players.

Anyone trying to exploit weaknesses by the bookie is a loser who can't make a winning pick. "Professional punter" is actually a scoundrel. Bookies have rules against such players, for a reason.

IMPORTANT NOTICE

Please read these terms and conditions before joining the Affiliate United Affiliate Programme (AUAP)
IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS AGREEMENT (OR ARE NOT AUTHORISED TO DO SO) YOU MAY NOT JOIN THE AUAP.
2.4.3 Transactions deemed by the Operator at its sole discretion to be made in violation of this provision will be deemed Fraud traffic and the Operator will deduct applicable Deposits or traffic from the amounts payable to the Affiliate hereunder.
6.11.1 The Operator reserves the right to withhold all amounts due and payable to the Affiliate under this Agreement if it believes that any Fraud has taken place or is contemplated which involves the Affiliate, whether or not the withheld amounts relate to the event in question. If the Operator believes that a Fraud has taken place or is contemplated by any Customer without the Affiliate’s knowledge, it will be entitled to withhold any amounts due to the Affiliate in connection with such Fraud.

Do you need reading glasses, Sherlock? You said in the other thread "rules are rules". Nadav said his fraud team is 100% sure this was a case of a fraud. The rules have been followed, so what are you complaining about? Do you expect the operator to pay for bringing in a fraudster? Do you?

Feda, this doesn't go against you, but against this half-baked self-righteous dellusional conspiracy theorist who should be put in his place.

As far as your problem is concerned, I believe your hands are tied. You can either let it go (despite the huge amount) or try to win the legal battle. Listening to Sherlock babble about his theories won't help you much. Do talk to WH on LAC, maybe they'll make it up to you in some other way.

**Sherlock** · 20 December 2014, 1:22 pm

Yeah. So you lost one under 4th qt bet and now suddenly you come chasing me over the whole forum. That is the spirit.

As I said before, there is no way to distinguish arb and pure steam player and lineshopper. Yes, both can not do "proper picks". That is how it is. The only pros who are making money long term are the three categories I just quoted.

And there are 3 categories of bookies: those who welcome them, those who show them door and those who steal from them (and from affiliates). If WillHill thinks they can steal like that, it is their business decision. They will for sure miss my traffic and I can only recommend to everyone else, if wants to maintain healthy business relationships, either to avoid WH affil or make it clean from the beginning and have some insurance like with dealing with other crooks. Talking to liars full of excuses on conferences is purely -EV like blind betting on -20 cent lines at certain recreational bookie. It is better to swallow loses and move on. (I am talking to OP here.)

Feel free to chasing me personally. I will not react though.

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