APCW Perspectives Friday 01/17/09

**Anti-Corruption** · 19 January 2009, 5:40 am

Originally Posted by Ixian

Should I send it via pm or is there particular email address I should send it to?

I'll take those facts too. Even 60 Minutes would be shaking its head with what's there already.

Originally Posted by Ixian

Yes, IMO, I do feel you have a vendetta towards CAP. The tone of your replies clearly indicates that. So much for professional reporting.

Just not seeing it. But I was noticing how professional and fact-based the videos were. And a whole lot of standard textbook deflection tactics, consisting of trying to make the guy with the goods look like the bad guy as aggressively and loudly as possible. Yup, seen that many times. And since we are people and not machines, and since principles and right vs. wrong matter, the only normal and human reaction is one which includes some degree of normal human emotion as well.

Originally Posted by Ixian

I'm sure all the programs at CAP would not put up with being "extorted". They, like you and me, have choices and they choose to be listed at CAP.

Or else...?

Originally Posted by Ixian

It's people like you who would like promote this idea and for some reason are afraid of CAP's success.

It's people like him that have the guts to do the right thing instead of keeping their mouths shut.

Originally Posted by Ixian

You are making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

Straight from the textbook, too. The wrong one, that is. Now I'm just some "guy" from somewhere following the news and the industry, and this J. Todd and that guy named Corfman don't know me from Adam - so how come I see the mountain, too?

Originally Posted by Ixian

I prefer a good whisky actually.

As for the Kool-Aid, well - maybe it's Kool-Aid, or maybe we just need to follow the money. Some people will often drink the Kool-Aid even when the facts have already been cooked and served up on a banquet platter, but sometimes it's simpler than that.

Originally Posted by Ixian

Talk about insults, you do quite well at the insults yourself.

No, still not seeing it. Just seeing some exquisitely effective doses of appropriate sarcasm in the videos, and something well within the norms of acceptability in the thread, but a whole lot worse towards the people exposing everything in the light of day...straight from the textbook.

**arkyt** · 19 January 2009, 12:19 pm

Originally Posted by Ixian

It's people like you who would like promote this idea and for some reason are afraid of CAP's success.

Give me a break! If CAPs success made the industry better as a whole instead of mostly better for CAP not many if any would care how much success they had. The fact however is that if CAP/PAP ceased to exist tomorrow, the industry would be better for it!

**Integrity** · 19 January 2009, 12:52 pm

Wow...

I must send a huge "thank you" to Anti-Corruption here... not only for stating things in such a concise and direct manner, but for saving me an entire hour that I would have spent posting almost the same reply! LOL!

================================================== =====

Ixian, you stated that you do not believe programs feel extored by CAP... who's average cost for "certification" is about $10,000 each and every quarter... so multiply $40,000 a year by 92 programs real quick and gimme a number (hope it doesn't cut into your commissions)... BUT you only addressed the "extorted" comment from my post. Why not answer my other questions as well:

* How many professional deals have you had with these guys involving money behind closed doors?

* How would you have any first-hand knowledge of what you're now trying to debate, as if you are privy to something all the rest of us missed?

* Even better, allow me to add: How many affiliate managers are you close enough to that you can sit down over a beer and get some honest feedback?

I tell ya what, my friend... if those questions are a bit sticky, let's just try two really simple ones. You really should think about things and honestly answer both questions below:

1) Are you in favor of open, honest, and transparent business practices in this industry?

2) Do you actually believe that Lou and Warren have been 100% open, honest, and transparent with this issue?

PS> Pumacat, as far as fancy badges not meaning anything, notice the one in placed in my signature? It was awarded to me about a year ago! LOL!

.

**Focalclick** · 19 January 2009, 2:47 pm

A little off topic, but I just want to thank J. Todd for the video. It's hard to stay up-to-date with everything going on with multiple threads across several forums, but I know I can tune into his video each week and be instantly updated. Same with this video.

Thanks again.

Mark

**TheGooner** · 19 January 2009, 3:11 pm

At risk of getting a volley of fire from both sides ...

This "debate" has been interesting to watch - and some of it would be funny too if the issue were not so serious.

The participants are obviously divided into two camps, and the members are clearly apparent, as they go around "thanking" anyone and everyone in their clique whenever they post no matter how dire the actual post is.

There are a group of around 10-12 CAP haters. I'm not saying there isn't a reason - but it colours your posts too heavily. There is no point in trying to pretend otherwise, as every sentence posted underlines your distaste for the CAP organisation. Unfortunately, most sentences are not persuasive to the neutral and undecided, as they are laced with bile and overtly negative phrasing that most readers think - uh-oh that's too strong.

Similarly there are CAP lovers here too, albeit fewer, again they tend to band together, thank each other regularly, and generally won't consider the proof as acceptable until it's a sworn videotaped statement made by CAP staff in blood - and even then they'd want a DNA test ..

You two groups are never going to convince each other - it's like any long running feud, the postions are now too entrenched - so I'd respectfully suggest that you don't get so worked up trying to do so as the increasingly volitile nature of the posts does a disservice to the earlier work.

The cardspike "ownership" claim seems dead. As does the "profit interest" (suggested as criminal for US citizens in early videos) as well. Now it's too-ing and fro-ing around an obviously related company (EMG) running the affiliate management for Cardspike, and why it was kept quiet.

I also did (unrelated) IT consulting to reputable banks down here, and do not mention to them my interest in online gambling, affiliate marketing etc. It's simply easier not to give them anything to worry about. So having seperate companies for seperate endevours is not an indicator of wrongdoing. Sometimes it just makes sense - espescially if there are extra partners involved.

But as this was a related activity clearly this should have been made public on CAP, PAP. Clearly CAP and PAP were slow to push and investigate Cardspike when the money stopped flowing - and it seems likely that the high level ownership in CAP, PAP, and EMG may have had some direction in that reticience.

I do NOT see it as major problem - yes the owners of EMG should have seen the obvious relationship, and declared it up front as soon as they also appears on CAP, PAP - but other than that there is no nefarious dealings, or shonky accounting being alledged is there?

As for the consulting - were they "Master Affiliates" getting a tier cut of 5%-10%? That is common place in programs. Or were they Affiliate Managers being paid a bonus based on affiliate payments? Also quite common.

IF I was setting up a new poker room, then I'd think approaching a major affiliate organisation like CPA, GPWA to consult or run the affiliate management side would be a smart outsourcing move.

As an affiliate I'd like better clarity in future, but really, I don't see any "breach of trust" although I do think that this episode has damaged CAP as being an independant affiliate platform.

The APCW and GPWA need to be careful that your passion for these issues also does not mean that your organisations start to be viewed as having a "vested interest" in belitting CAP.

There are other things that we can be discussing.

**Puma** · 19 January 2009, 3:22 pm

PS> Pumacat, as far as fancy badges not meaning anything, notice the one in placed in my signature? It was awarded to me about a year ago! LOL!

Hey J.todd, I wonder what it would say now if the award was reissued? Now that would be funny.

**universal4** · 19 January 2009, 4:50 pm

Gooner,

I agree with a lot of what you said....and am not saying that just because I am on one side or the other.(actually I have tried not to take sides in this and have only requested more proof and less accusations)

I am not sure whether I agree that it is not a major problem or not, but time and a bit more investigation into the matters will help us all make up our minds better about how it affects the industry, our individual businesses and the way we "feel" aboiut our involvement with some of the programs affected.

Rick
Universal4

**elgoog** · 19 January 2009, 5:13 pm

Paul - the Gooner,

Allow me to thank you for your post,
You worded very well what i couldn't express due to english not being my native language.
Thank You!

**Captain** · 19 January 2009, 5:15 pm

Hey Everyone,
It saddens me that during these tough times people can not get along. I have many friends here and at CAP that were there when everything in my life was going down. I remember the moral support from many here and at CAP and in the industry. There is more good than bad from my stand point in many here and at CAP. Many good friends in both forums. I do understand some of what is going on still I am sadden. The Professor and Bigfish family flew up here to be with my family in our time of sorrow. So many of you sent flowers and plants in support. Lou and his family our are friends and so our many of you. I would love to see the day we all can laugh and have a positive in our lives again. I guess I'll go sit down and drink a beer.

**Dominique** · 19 January 2009, 7:38 pm

Originally Posted by pumacat

Hey J.todd, I wonder what it would say now if the award was reissued? Now that would be funny.

JTodd got that award because the forum members at CAP appreciated his work.

The people voted him to be the person who in 2007 contributed most to the welfare of his fellow affiliates.

So that is worthless now? Everyone of these people who voted for JTodd are - what?

**Puma** · 19 January 2009, 8:35 pm

I think we should make a different one that says "best affiliate investigator" instead because he gets the real deal out there for everybody to see.

**Integrity** · 20 January 2009, 1:41 am

Originally Posted by Dominique

JTodd got that award because the forum members at CAP appreciated his work. The people voted him to be the person who in 2007 contributed most to the welfare of his fellow affiliates. So that is worthless now? Everyone of these people who voted for JTodd are - what?

Thank you for bringing this up Dom, because you are exactly right, and I am sorry. I love so many of you good people at CAP, but I was banned 5 months ago and am no longer welcome to post or attend events. That's sort of sad.

Don't you find it odd, though, that the voting for the 2009 CAP Awards started 9 months ago and my name wasn't even on the list of about 15 nominations? Wonder why that is? (Wait! I think I know! LOL!)

**joeyl** · 20 January 2009, 12:06 pm

Originally Posted by Integrity

Thank you for bringing this up Dom, because you are exactly right, and I am sorry. I love so many of you good people at CAP, but I was banned 5 months ago and am no longer welcome to post or attend events. That's sort of sad.

I have issues with CAP, the APCW & the GPWA.

I'll mention only 1 here.

I am firmly of the opinion, that if you/the APCW were'nt banned at Cap, you'd not be making these Cardspike videos in the same manner.

While you were at Cap, issues went down you/APCW never commented on. The GPWA continued to work with Cap, and hamstrung my posting rights. What's to say you lot won't change your mind, call & truce, and the likes of I and for example Caruso won't be the lunatic fringe tomorrow afternoon.

You were told about Cap. In no uncertain terms - all of you apcw gpwa folk.

You and the GPWA have a way to go yet, to convince me you'll shine the light on the next rogue bit of behaviour, unless it suits you.

A long drawn out post trying to shout me down won't work. The future actions of the APCW and the GPWA towards other alleged bad practise is your only route to convince me.

If you think i'm alone, my guess is you'd be sorely mistaken.

I would prefer Cap make a good few changes. If they do, they might get my support again 1 day.

Do carry on.

**alexpratt** · 20 January 2009, 4:26 pm

Originally Posted by Integrity

Thank you for bringing this up Dom, because you are exactly right, and I am sorry. I love so many of you good people at CAP, but I was banned 5 months ago and am no longer welcome to post or attend events. That's sort of sad.

Don't you find it odd, though, that the voting for the 2009 CAP Awards started 9 months ago and my name wasn't even on the list of about 15 nominations? Wonder why that is? (Wait! I think I know! LOL!)

J.Todd - I run the awards and am massively proud of their transparency and meaning so I hope you continue to wear that badge with pride because you should because you were voted by the members.
As for 2009 there is only one reason why you wern't in the final nominations and that is because you didn't get enough nominations - You did get some but just not enough.

Hopefully you know me enough to know that is true

**arkyt** · 20 January 2009, 4:40 pm

Unforgivable

**Dominique** · 20 January 2009, 6:27 pm

Originally Posted by Integrity

[SIZE="3"]Thank you for bringing this up Dom, because you are exactly right, and I am sorry. I love so many of you good people at CAP, but I was banned 5 months ago and am no longer welcome to post or attend events. That's sort of sad.

I think so too. You got the award because you worked hard and you deserved it.

I don't doubt Alex' integrity in running the awards either. Alex is about as straight up as they come, and you know it, you know him.

I don't like the direction this is taking, affiliates have no battle with each other. Many roam freely between GPWA and CAP, and that's the way it should be.

**Puma** · 20 January 2009, 10:23 pm

Many roam freely between GPWA and CAP, and that's the way it should be.

That sums it up 100% Nobody could say it better than that.

Thread: APCW Perspectives Friday 01/17/09

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